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Vecchio 13-05-08, 03:24 AM   #1
anton
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predefinito cartridges - cal.12

Hello!

I'am a collector of cartridges cal.12 and I'am asking you - Does anyone know if producers of cartridges like -
Armeria Cecchini from Forli, Armeria Assirelli from Forli, Armeria Sergio Zavarise from Montebelluno(Tv), Franco Pratti from Ravenna, Armeria Salomon from St. Lucia di P., Bagnoli from Tavernelle (Fi), Negrello from Este, BPD Snia, SMI, Martignoni from Genova -
still exist?
My collection includes some types from mentioned companies, but I can not find more about production etc. I'am very interested about the history of the particular companies; when / how it started with production, etc.?
Do they still produce the shotshells?
Where can I find something about mentioned companies?

Is there anyone who are collecting shotshells too?

Thank you in advance,
Yours faithfully
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Vecchio 14-05-08, 12:09 PM   #2
G.G.
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Hello!

I'am a collector of cartridges cal.12 and I'am asking you - Does anyone know if producers of cartridges like -
Armeria Cecchini from Forli, Armeria Assirelli from Forli, Armeria Sergio Zavarise from Montebelluno(Tv), Franco Pratti from Ravenna, Armeria Salomon from St. Lucia di P., Bagnoli from Tavernelle (Fi), Negrello from Este, BPD Snia, SMI, Martignoni from Genova -
still exist?
My collection includes some types from mentioned companies, but I can not find more about production etc. I'am very interested about the history of the particular companies; when / how it started with production, etc.?
Do they still produce the shotshells?
Where can I find something about mentioned companies?

Is there anyone who are collecting shotshells too?

Thank you in advance,
Yours faithfully
Negrello-Este (excellent, small but very fine, ammo producer) closed for bankruptcy since july 1982, his name was buyed and included under the trademark Maionchi Lucca.
I had the honor to know personally his General Manager, the Shooter Champ Mr.Giorgio Rosatti.
SMI, was included since about 1984 under the trademark Maionchi-Lucca.
BPD-Snia, Maionchi Lucca and Martignoni Molassana (Genova) was buyed since 1995 from french SNPE and still exist under the trademark Nobel Sport.
I believe that all the others craftsmen (ammo producers) expired since about 1970/1980.

Cordialità
G.G.
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Vecchio 14-05-08, 06:44 PM   #3
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predefinito

At first I would like to give thanks for your exhaustive response.


I have to say that I was very surprised when I read about the fate of cartridge companies. Especially in the case of Negrello from Este; let I explain you why.


I am very glad to have in my collection a few original Negrello cartridges – as I understood – they all must be older than 26 years and consecutively today very precious to me. But not only today – they were precious even when they were brought to Slovenia. We must know that in our country (and ex Yugoslavia) for that time were ruled only four main cartridge companies: Trepča, Krušik- Valjevo, Puškarna Kranj (for a short period) and latter Venator- Slavonski brod- and they were very expensive and not all the time reliable. That means that every piece of italian shotshells –which were brought to Slovenia by italian hunters as a gift –was a immense prestige. Some older hunters still keep old italian shotshells for a special occasion although today there is no problems with availability of fresh italian cartridges; we have importers for a several producers- Clever Mirage, Fiocchi, Pegoraro, Cheddite, Bornaghi, Baschieri &Pellagri and RC Eximport.

I hope that I was understandable in my explanation. As you may anderstood – my main interest is to date cartridges in my collection. In some cases it is possible to do it (of course approximately) with tipology of metal bottom of cartridges (it is more reliable if cartridges were filled in Fiocchi tubes,) which were changing through the time.

I would like to ask you about another 'mistery' -What happend with Pinto from Este, Chiara Sport from Oderzzo, Montecatini Edison (I think from Orbetello)?

Was company Vigevano (I.M.I. or I.V.I.) produced only empty tubes with brass bottom for other companies or it was producing even their own types of cartridges?

Which company was filled cartridge cal.12,type Beretta - trap blu and when?


Thank you in advance!
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Vecchio 16-05-08, 01:11 AM   #4
G.G.
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At first I would like to give thanks for your exhaustive response.


I have to say that I was very surprised when I read about the fate of cartridge companies. Especially in the case of Negrello from Este; let I explain you why.


I am very glad to have in my collection a few original Negrello cartridges – as I understood – they all must be older than 26 years and consecutively today very precious to me. But not only today – they were precious even when they were brought to Slovenia. We must know that in our country (and ex Yugoslavia) for that time were ruled only four main cartridge companies: Trepča, Krušik- Valjevo, Puškarna Kranj (for a short period) and latter Venator- Slavonski brod- and they were very expensive and not all the time reliable. That means that every piece of italian shotshells –which were brought to Slovenia by italian hunters as a gift –was a immense prestige. Some older hunters still keep old italian shotshells for a special occasion although today there is no problems with availability of fresh italian cartridges; we have importers for a several producers- Clever Mirage, Fiocchi, Pegoraro, Cheddite, Bornaghi, Baschieri &Pellagri and RC Eximport.

I hope that I was understandable in my explanation. As you may anderstood – my main interest is to date cartridges in my collection. In some cases it is possible to do it (of course approximately) with tipology of metal bottom of cartridges (it is more reliable if cartridges were filled in Fiocchi tubes,) which were changing through the time.

I would like to ask you about another 'mistery' -What happend with Pinto from Este, Chiara Sport from Oderzzo, Montecatini Edison (I think from Orbetello)?

Was company Vigevano (I.M.I. or I.V.I.) produced only empty tubes with brass bottom for other companies or it was producing even their own types of cartridges?

Which company was filled cartridge cal.12,type Beretta - trap blu and when?


Thank you in advance!
Negrello was a excellent ammo maker.
I know Negrello-Este only since 1979, the first year when I began as a trap shooter, but my "hunting father", a old man infallible hunter and a very fine trap shooter, used Negrello Cartridge since 1965.
I believe that Negrello worked together with Pinto until 1966, after this year Pinto began a businnes with Clever-Verona.
Negrello used Gevelot hulls and Gevinox primer until about 1974/75.
After this time Este begin to use the very fine SMI hulls and NOC primers (this was the best production of his history); only the three last years 1980/1982, Este used Maionchi hulls and primers.
My friend until 1980 hunted Girlitza (Streptopelia Turtur) in Novi Sad and Novi Milosevo only with Negrello cartridge (preferred type was "P" and "Miura" and for long shot Miura Competizione and Primula); Patcha (anas platyrhynchos ) in five Ecka lakes with Negrello Este "P4".
I have a small collection of the old Este Negrello Catridges.

I don't know Chiara Sport.

The name of Montecatini Edison cartridges was Dynamite Nobel.
This was first time in Avigliana-Torino (I believe until about 1970) and later in Orbetello (SIDNA was achronimus of Societa Italiana Dynamite Nobel Avigliana --- and DN, achronimus of Dynamite Nobel).

I believe that IMI-Vigevano produced only empty hulls and used especially Kemira primers.
Pegoraro, Gualandi, Toschi and other small ammo producers have long used IMI hulls.

Beretta catridges was filled by several small italian ammo producers; first time with Legia-FN hulls and wads, later with Cheddite hulls and primers.

I'm afraid to be almost... misunderstandable!!

Cordialità
G.G.
__________________
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clearness and they live by what they hear.
Such people become crazy, or they become legends.
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Vecchio 16-05-08, 04:01 AM   #5
anton
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predefinito

I am very grateful for your precisely explanation. I undersatnd all the informations that you explained. Thank you very much. From those details I will be able to define more precisely oldness of a few cartridges.


You say that your friend was hunting in Serbia Tortora's and Anatra's. In my village on Krško field near Nuclear power plant (Slovenia) were hunted manly domestical Piccione, Colombaccio and Tortore throgh 80's, so they used pallini numero mainly from 7 – 8, often commonly in trap editions. But before - from ca. 1960 onward -were hunted even Starna and Quaglia, sometimes fagiano.
Cartucce Chiara Sport were brought to Slovenia- as it is known to me - may be only at one occasion in the very early 80's. Unfortunately, I have in my collection only 1 empty box and 1 empty shotshell from that producer. I can send you a picture of them next week.
After that time, in second half of a 80's were brought to us cartucce mainly from next producers:
Pegoraro (Gs1,Gs4-caccia, G38-caccia (in Vigevano hulls), Vo-caccia, V3-nichelatto (Vigevano hulls), V10-temperato (mainly in Fiocchi hulls),
Fiocchi (Field in T2, Semi Semi Magnum in T5, Elite Trap (in T4) and of course PL1, 2 and Every season - without exceptions- were brought some pieces of legendary B&P type MB Gigante (more in plastic hulls, less in paper) and MB tricolor in palstic. But once, only one year were brougt type LP quattro I think in hull SOFIM or EXPRESS.
Maionchi (M Speed in green, blue and orange colored hulls and a type with logo Alfred Nobel ICI Powderin orange hull).
RC Romagna and latter Eximport (RC1 trap, RC2 caccia, RC3 competitizione and Champion trap and RC4 Seria oro).
But between those were a numerous less known producers like Mel - Gelisio from Belluno, Assirelli, Armeria Pola, Armeria Diana, Innocenti, Sergio Zavarise, Armeria Cecchini, Armeria Giesse Stoffi or Alpina (?)… And those are my big mystery in occupation with right datation.

I have a few pieces with inscription: CARICAMENTO E.T. (black Fiocchi hull T3 and T4) with logo SPORT TIRO BERTOLO(?) and CARICAMENTO O.S.P. (blue Fiocchi hull T2) with logo of F2 powder. Who was producer of those cartridges and when?

Who was Maionchi Bruno and Antonio Dionisi in the world of cartridges? I have only empty boxses where are mentioned those two names and I do not know when they were producing cartridges.




Thank you,


Best Regards!

Ultima modifica di anton; 16-05-08 a 04:10 AM
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Vecchio 17-05-08, 12:08 AM   #6
G.G.
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Originariamente inviata da anton Visualizza il messaggio
I am very grateful for your precisely explanation. I undersatnd all the informations that you explained. Thank you very much. From those details I will be able to define more precisely oldness of a few cartridges.


You say that your friend was hunting in Serbia Tortora's and Anatra's. In my village on Krško field near Nuclear power plant (Slovenia) were hunted manly domestical Piccione, Colombaccio and Tortore throgh 80's, so they used pallini numero mainly from 7 – 8, often commonly in trap editions. But before - from ca. 1960 onward -were hunted even Starna and Quaglia, sometimes fagiano.
Cartucce Chiara Sport were brought to Slovenia- as it is known to me - may be only at one occasion in the very early 80's. Unfortunately, I have in my collection only 1 empty box and 1 empty shotshell from that producer. I can send you a picture of them next week.
After that time, in second half of a 80's were brought to us cartucce mainly from next producers:
Pegoraro (Gs1,Gs4-caccia, G38-caccia (in Vigevano hulls), Vo-caccia, V3-nichelatto (Vigevano hulls), V10-temperato (mainly in Fiocchi hulls),
Fiocchi (Field in T2, Semi Semi Magnum in T5, Elite Trap (in T4) and of course PL1, 2 and Every season - without exceptions- were brought some pieces of legendary B&P type MB Gigante (more in plastic hulls, less in paper) and MB tricolor in palstic. But once, only one year were brougt type LP quattro I think in hull SOFIM or EXPRESS.
Maionchi (M Speed in green, blue and orange colored hulls and a type with logo Alfred Nobel ICI Powderin orange hull).
RC Romagna and latter Eximport (RC1 trap, RC2 caccia, RC3 competitizione and Champion trap and RC4 Seria oro).
But between those were a numerous less known producers like Mel - Gelisio from Belluno, Assirelli, Armeria Pola, Armeria Diana, Innocenti, Sergio Zavarise, Armeria Cecchini, Armeria Giesse Stoffi or Alpina (?)… And those are my big mystery in occupation with right datation.

I have a few pieces with inscription: CARICAMENTO E.T. (black Fiocchi hull T3 and T4) with logo SPORT TIRO BERTOLO(?) and CARICAMENTO O.S.P. (blue Fiocchi hull T2) with logo of F2 powder. Who was producer of those cartridges and when?

Who was Maionchi Bruno and Antonio Dionisi in the world of cartridges? I have only empty boxses where are mentioned those two names and I do not know when they were producing cartridges.




Thank you,


Best Regards!
Bruno Maionchi was a ammo producer of Lucca, this trademark existed about from 1963/64 until 1997/98, included todey on the trademark Nobel Sport.
His cartridges was appreciated especially on hunting field and for Pidgeon shooting and Trap shooting.

Dionisi was a medium producer of Ascoli Piceno and still go ahead, this trademark today form an alliance with Fiocchi.

Pegoraro is a very fine ammo producer and today use for his production Fiocchi and Cheddite hulls.

G. Stoffi, was a man of Pegoraro until 15 years ago, was his cartridges charger; GS on the Pegoraro's cartridges mean Giancarlo Stoffi.
Since about 15 years, Giancarlo Stoffi was the founder of another Trademark the "Giesse Stoffi".

Armeria Pola,... a old Gun Store and a old ammo maker of Finale Emilia (Modena) is near my city, 20 km. nord.
Pola Erardo, is a friend, still exist and produce fine cartridges.

Armeria Mel - Gelisio i believe that is near Belluno, NE mountain zone of Italy, still exist.
I know a special undersized round ball 12 gauge cartridge for boar of Gelisio production.

Armeria Innocenti - Montemurlo (Prato) a old small ammo maker, of the Central zone of Italy, I don't know if still Innocenti produce cartridges today.

Armeria Diana, was/is a historycal Gun Store and ammo maker of Napoli.


Cordialità
G.G.
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clearness and they live by what they hear.
Such people become crazy, or they become legends.
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Vecchio 19-05-08, 11:15 PM   #7
anton
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predefinito

Thank you again for all the information that you sent.

Considering the fact that a large amount of cartridges were filled into Fiocchi hulls - I made a approximate relative cronology of bottom types- but I am not sure that it is correct.

Please correct me because - as it seems - this will be the only way to bring correct datation for my collection.

Timeline (Picture)

Thank you in advance!
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Vecchio 24-06-08, 08:46 PM   #8
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predefinito

Bumping the thread.

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