Coat Colour.

[Ardenstorm]

I have been told that breeding a chestnut to a chestnut Bracco is to be avoided due to the possibility of production of black or even tri colour in the resulting offspring!
Can anyone give guidance on this, is this true, has anyone had or seen the results of this type of mating?
As the Bracco is a relatively new breed in the U.K. we need as much assistance as possible.

John Abraham [:-glass]

[Diana]

No it is true, tri colour (focature) not depend on the color of the parents. Genealogia should look into.

[Lucio Marzano]

I have been told that breeding a chestnut to a chestnut Bracco is to be avoided due to the possibility of production of black or even tri colour in the resulting offspring!
Can anyone give guidance on this, is this true, has anyone had or seen the results of this type of mating?
As the Bracco is a relatively new breed in the U.K. we need as much assistance as possible.

John Abraham

the possibility to have a tan or rayed or tricolour depend
of the breedeing line, you can have dog with the a.m. coat colour also breeding a white/orange with a chestnut if
one of the ancestors (of the both breed/line) is carrier
of the gene of the tricolour/tan/rayed.
sorry for my bad english

[Ardenstorm]

Diana/Lucio, thank you for the replies.
So.both chestnut & orange can produce tri colour or black, is that correct? Depenging on whether both parents carry a recessive gene for that colour.

If a breeder consistently breeds chestnut to chestnut, could this lead to coulour degradation (ligter or darker).

John Abraham
Ardenstorm

[Lucio Marzano]

If a breeder consistently breeds chestnut to chestnut, could this lead to coulour degradation (ligter or darker).

of course is possible but absolutely not for sure and not as a rule

[Rossella]

Hi! Personally I have never seen any bracco with black marks. If you are insterested in coat color genetics there are several good websites available online for free and many good books in English. The tri colour (in any breed) is caused by the allele At which can be found in dogs of any color and is considered recessive. In this stage, personally, I am not 100% sure that the Bracco Italiano has the At allele as some dogs who are defined "tricolour" seem more likely to be the result of mosaicism (online you can find info on this as well). In any case, if we believe the allele At to be present in the breed, we cannot associate it to the orange or to the brown as it can accompanies both colours. The only problem is that lighter spots can be seen easily in a brown dog while the orange could disguise them.
As for the black, if we admit its existence, it should not show up breeding brown to brown (bb + bb) while there are some dogs who are apparently orange (fawn) but bear a peculiar gene (recently identified) that hides black color and could produce black puppies. I think this gene to be present in the English Setter but not in the bracco. I also think it is very rare.
As for the other question, the brown color (chocolate - liver) is a diluition of the black color (brown is bb while black is BB or Bb) and yes it is virtually possible that breeding brown to brown it could diluite further. Not a rule though and linked, imho, to the shade and richness of the brown. Some genes, named "modifiers", are likely to be involved in this process. I hope this helps.
I am not that much into coat colour genetics but I have a friend who studies it and is much more proficient in this subject so, if you feel like asking some question I'd pass you his e-mail

[Ardenstorm]

Coat Colour.

Thank you to all who have replied to this thread. I am now clear as to the possibilities that are possible with regard to 'modification' of the colour.

Regards,
Ardenstorm.

[Ardenstorm]

Another question! Do you mate chestnut to chestnut? As some people in the U.K. have said that this should not be done. I am confused as genetically their is no reason not to.

Thank you in advance.
Ardenstorm.

[Rossella]

Another question! Do you mate chestnut to chestnut? As some people in the U.K. have said that this should not be done. I am confused as genetically their is no reason not to.

Thank you in advance.
Ardenstorm.

Hi, I don't own any bracchi but I see no (scientific) reasons to avoid such a mating.

[Lucio Marzano]

I agree with Rossella, there aren't technical reasons to avoid to cross chesnut with chesnut.
You should have the same negative output (tan or tricolour) also crossing chesnut with white/orange if one of the parents is carrier
of the specific chromosome.

[Ardenstorm]

Thank you all again. You have dispelled a myth which has been talked about in the U.K.

Ardenstorm.

[cruftsdog]

Hi,

I have a question with regards to coat colour if anyone can advise or point me in the right direction I would be exceptionally grateful. I have done lots of research regarding this topic but would like clarification further from anyone who has experienced what I am at present with my Bracco puppies.

My orange and white bitch was mated to a chesnut roan earlier this year, we had nine very healthy puppies.
2 orange roan girls
2 Tri-coloured girls
2 orange roan boys
1 orange and white boy
2 chesnut roan boys

I have lookked at the mode of inheritance for the at gene which suggests if this is the mode of inheritance then the sire and dam carry one copy of the recessive at gene, however if a repeat mating was to occur because of the random nature of the gametes coming together there is no way of really predicting what colours will be born on the second repeat mating unless of course we use Mendels probabilities.

Further to this the orange colour has recessed immensely and on some areas where it was quite prominent it has disappeared. This may be due to the enzymes linked to the two forms of melanin becoming active at some stages of development and then becoming de-activated resulting in total colour change.

This has been been seen and documented in the U.K. where chesnut puppies were born then changed to orange at a later stage in their development, this can also occur in other breeds.

There is also the suggestion that the mode of inheritance may due to Mosaic genes as seen in the Rough Collie Merles and Dalmation to name just two.

My questions are please:

1) Has the mode of inheritance being established?
2)How predominant is this on the continent and inItaly the homeland of this
3) Has anyone followed the development of puppies with this colour?
magnificent breed?
4) Why is the BEAUTIFUL Tri-colour not recognised ?
5) Are there any known health issues related to this colour combination as seen in some of the Merles?

I thank you in anticipation for your comments and sincerity in answering my questions, the Bracco Italiano is becoming a very respected breed in the U.K. as a family pet, stunning showman and a worthy working dog in the field. We are very respectful of the care and nurture the breeders in Italy have applied to this breed and we in the U.K. wish to maintain this high standard, we can only build on this with your deep knowledge of the breed that we currently lack.

Dorne Carr

[cruftsdog]

coat colour

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My questions are please:

1) Has the mode of inheritance being established?
2)How predominant is this on the continent and inItaly the homeland of this
3) Has anyone followed the development of puppies with this colour?
magnificent breed?
4) Why is the BEAUTIFUL Tri-colour not recognised ?
5) Are there any known health issues related to this colour combination as seen in some of the Merles?
.

Dorne Carr

Hi I'd suggest you contacting Denis Ferretti about your questions (I can give you his e-mail or you can find him on facebook).
As far as I know, he was the first to suspect mosaicism in the breed, after I showed him some pictures of a bracco who was (only apparently) a tri.
As for the tri, I do not think there are any health related issues. The At allele is a healthy one, it has nothing to do with the merle... Unhealthy merles are the results of merle x merle matings and are called "double merles".
The tri is not welcome in the breed as it reminds people of other breeds (esp of the bloodhound, I think) and makes them think that some "foreign" blood is still present in the bracco. I think, however, that the question should befurther explored using a more scientific approach. It would be important to understand who is tri and who carries lighter spots because of mosaicism, first of all and then it would be interesting to map the DNA of these dogs (mosaicism and tri) and compare it to the one of regular coloured dogs.
I hope this helps!
Rossella

Many thanks Rossella for your prompt response on this one as it has caused many Chinese whispers within the breed and we do need to know the facts before things become silly.

I would apprecite the email address so I can liase with him further and may even be able to access some funding from the charitable trust to start mapping the DNA of the breed in the U.K.

It is also my intention to arrange a genetics seminar with the inclusion of coat colour inheritance to assist the breeding programmes within the U.K. Assistance with this would be greatly appreciated.

yours sincerely,

Dorne Carr

Many thanks Rossella for your prompt response on this one as it has caused many Chinese whispers within the breed and we do need to know the facts before things become silly.

I would apprecite the email address so I can liase with him further and may even be able to access some funding from the charitable trust to start mapping the DNA of the breed in the U.K.

It is also my intention to arrange a genetics seminar with the inclusion of coat colour inheritance to assist the breeding programmes within the U.K. Assistance with this would be greatly appreciated.

yours sincerely,

Dorne Carr

e-mail me privately. Denis should have some papers in English on this topic and has already given some talks on coat color genetics (for breed clubs and so).

The Sabi (Società italiana bracco italiano) carried out a study on the genetics of the bracco to evaluate genetic diversity with the University of Pisa. They should have the DNA map for these dogs (dna fingertip) and you can find the study somewhere on the bracco italiano forum (this one) webpage, under materiali I think


Ps is any bracco going to partecipate to the HPR dogs event near Reading, next September (it was featured in The Field, or rather on its website)

What is the genealogy of your dogs?

[cruftsdog]

genetics

Hi Rossella,

could you let me have your email address, I am on facebook.

kind regards,

Dorne